Over the past several years, Laura Cromwell has made a name for herself among the denizens of the downtown New York avant-garde music scene. Although she's no stranger to more straight-ahead rock-at one point she was part of the ever-changing line-up for God Is My Co-Pilot-and has even flirted with Japanese pop, Cromwell has recently become known as a composer and performer of edgy and experimental music. First there was her group, Dim Sum Clip Job, and now with fellow collaborators Jamie Saft and Vanessa Hodge, she makes music under the moniker, The Vivian Sisters. Their recent CD has just come out on John Zorn's label and can be found in your finer houses of eclectic music and, thanks to the web, is also available absolutely everywhere.

After a long bout of phone tag, I finally made contact with the elusive Laura Cromwell. By this time, I almost felt like I already knew her. I'd gotten raves about her and her music from other drummers and musicians and had found myself bopping along to a tape she sent me that had songs she drummed on for Japanese chanteuse Takako Minnekawa. I cleverly managed to get her to invite me to brunch and feed me (okay, she offered-that's how nice she is). This is how I ended up showing up on her doorstep in Brooklyn on a sunny Sunday, bearing my mini-tape recorder and a very large appetite.

The setting: A small backyard garden in Brooklyn complete with a toy playground set (for the kids who live upstairs) and a tiny garden. The time: April 2001. The characters: Laura Cromwell: Drummergirl extraordinaire who has played with everyone from Dusty Trails (consisting of Josephine Wiggs of the Breeders and Luscious Jackson's Vivian Trimble) and Cibo Matto, to leading avant-garde musician Zeena Parkins. Julia Cho: Bassist and drummergirl.com contributing editor-at-large. Rope: Laura's very friendly and curious dog.

Julia: So, let's start with the obvious: how did you start drumming? Who influenced you?
Laura: I started playing in San Francisco. My boyfriend was a drummer-so lame, I know! But it changed my life. The Melvins are a huge influence-their music is heavy, super heavy. And Led Zeppelin all the way. I'm a heavy rocker at heart.

Julia: Do you think there's a difference between playing with men and women?
Laura: At first, I used to think there was a huge difference, because my first band [Growing Up Skipper] was all women and the vibe was very different from later bands with guys. But I've realized I don't think it's so much a difference between men and women as between people who think they are professionals as opposed to people who don't-as in people who have confidence in their playing as opposed to people who don't. And men seem to have it more, even if they suck. But playing with Zeena Parkins is no different from playing with Anthony Coleman. Zeena doesn't need any reassurance from anybody.

But when you're just starting out, girls need more encouragement; a lot of times they're very insecure. Because, you know, they've probably been discouraged. Boys feel like it's their right. And it's not across the board; it's just a generalization.

Julia: When you first started playing, did you go through a phase where you needed encouragement?
Laura: When I first started, the band I was in was really encouraging. Growing Up Skipper was on a parallel course with the Riot Grrl movement. We were not involved in Riot Grrl, but we were definitely Riot Grrls, just the very epitome of what that means. We were just taking things into our own hands, no experience at all. Me especially. I had just been playing for a few months. I was twenty-four-I'm a late bloomer (laughs).

Julia: But that's great. Maybe because you were older, you had this anger and ferocity that you could bring to the playing.
Laura: Totally. And for me, it was important because I had previously been an artist; that's what I did, I was a visual artist. It was what I grew up doing. And I was experiencing, at that point in my life, a very serious blockage. I just couldn't do anything. And I didn't know what to do. And playing drums was my saving, it really was. Basically, I was suffering from incredible perfectionism, the kind that just makes you stop; you can't move because nothing can be good enough. And then for me playing drums was like well nothing can be good enough because I've never done this before. So everything is new. I allowed myself to make mistakes whereas in my previous field I hadn't. Failure is really important. It's very humbling. You realize that the world doesn't end if you fail. And for me, anyway, it gives me the courage to say, "Okay, I'm going to try something new again, and take that chance that I might fail." I think that's really the only way to discover things and stretch out and learn new things. It was such a breakthrough for me to be able to do that. Creatively speaking. I guess that's kind of off the point.

Julia: No, that's completely on the point! Do you still do visual art or have all of your energies shifted over to music?
Laura: Mostly into music but I have been trying to get back into graphic design now. Partly for work and partly for me.

Julia: Do you feel like any of your visual art fed your drumming?
Laura: Oh, yeah. I feel like any kind of creative activity, any kind of creative work, feeds another kind; it all counts. Whenever I do something, it's very visual. I'll do a painting first just to get the general idea of the piece and then write it after I have something to look at.

Julia: When did you start shifting into composing?
Laura: Well, I was doing a little bit but back then it was called "songwriting." (Laughs) In Growing Up Skipper, we all wrote a little bit but I mostly concentrated on drum parts and the other two were really doing the singer-songwriter thing. In Dim Sum Clip Job, I started writing tunes. And then I got a commission to write a piece for Roulette. So that was my first really big composition [of the piece, "Burning"].

Julia: And how was that?
Laura: It was good. But it was hard for me. It's hard for me to get stuff out. I like to play; I've been in a lot of playing situations where I'm just the drummer [and] there my creativity just flows freely. But you know if you have to put your name on it and be responsible for it, I get really hung up. It's hard. So I don't end up writing as much as I'd like to but I think that I should.

Julia: Did composing affect your drumming?
Laura: Yeah, actually, it did. And I'll tell ya, I used to drum a lot more like I wanted to do everything in the drums. It had to be very symphonic or very melodic. And it's still sort of in there; it's just the natural way that I am. But since I started writing, I realized that, you know, other instruments can do this, and sometimes drums can just be drums.

Julia: At what point did you know you wanted to be a serious drummer?
Laura: I think when I first started, from the minute I started playing. I just got so excited about it. I just loved it. I started it and just didn't stop. I started and I was like, "Okay, this is it, I'm doing this." I started practicing four hours a day for several years. It was the greatest. It was all I wanted to do.

Julia: It sounds like you really found your passion.
Laura: Totally. Not to say I wouldn't go back and have a career as an artist. I think about it all the time and I think I probably will. Because I grew up with it. When you do something as a kid, it's a passion [and] I think it never goes away. But I don't think drumming will go away either.

Julia: Do you still practice a lot? Do you have a regimen?
Laura: I wish. Well, my regimen is the lazy person's regimen. Most times, I play on a drum pad while I'm watching TV, watching movies. It's excellent because it makes you practice way more than you would if you were actually concentrating! (Laughs)

Julia: So we've talked about the difference between songwriting and composing. I was listening to your new CD, which is very experimental and uses a lot of different instruments. To you, what is the difference between music and just sound, or the point where sound becomes music?
Laura: I'm not a trained musician, you know? No training. I'm completely self-taught. So I don't look at things in any kind of technical way. For me it's incredibly personal and I go by some kind of intuition. Like, if it feels right, it's music. If it sounds like it's music, it's music. It doesn't matter at all what happened actually, you know what I mean? It could be the worst crackle music in the world-you know where it's just someone playing with their amp and their little recording to make feedback or whatever-but if they're making music, they're making music. I don't think it matters so much the sound being used-you know, environmental sounds have a musical quality, we're surrounded by it all the time.

Julia: When you're composing, what do you draw on?
Laura: Everything, everything, I draw on everything. When I'm composing, you know, it'll be like I'll futz around the organ, say, and come up with some little line and just kind of go from there. Just sort of out of nowhere. My favorite technique in the world to do everything, is pretty much to go on automatic pilot and go on my intuition. That's really how I do almost everything creative: to just not think about it too much, to just let it come out, and to try and help the process rather than controlling the process.

But then there are some times, most times, when there is a certain theme I want to go with too. Like ["Burning"] was really based on transcendence from the earthly realm to a more spiritual realm. It's based on the work you do with mandalas.

Julia: What are they?
Laura: They're gateways to enlightenment. They're like a visual representation of enlightenment. You can use them in various religions with meditation to get to a different realm. They're incredibly beautiful. It's like a map of ways to enlightenment.

Julia: How did you get into all of this? I mean, are you just naturally a spiritual person? How did you start incorporating spirituality into the music?
Laura: I was just at a place and time at that moment where I wrote that piece where it was very important to me. I felt like I needed healing. That is really what it was about. Maybe because it was such a big piece, I didn't want to mess around with the subject matter; I wanted it to be about something that I needed to address.

Julia: Where does the title, "Burning," come from?
Laura: I was doing yoga with Jay from Dim Sum Clip Job, who is now a yoga master. He told me that when you're doing a yoga stretch, the feeling that you're getting while you're stretching back here, what you're doing is burning karma by doing your exercises. By basically communing with the world. So I just really like that. Being a very intuitive person, I'm somebody who relies on my psyche, my subconscious, all the time. I really believe in karma and any opportunity to burn off bad karma I think is excellent and we should all take it all the time.

Julia: Practically speaking, what do you do when you get blocked?
Laura: Usually pick up a different instrument.

Julia: How many instruments do you play?
Laura: I play organ, you know, keyboards, but I don't really play. I'm picking up more and more percussion stuff that is more melodic and they really help me be able to write stuff. That's what I'm looking for more and more: instruments to write on. But I'm not good on any of them. I've been playing out on them more and more but I'm not proficient.

Julia: Do you read and write music?
Laura: Sort of, but not really. If I'm really hard-pressed to write a melody, I can write it.

Julia: How do you compose then?
Laura: Mostly in sort of a script fashion. Like, [when] I'm writing something, I'll write it out but sort of like instructions more than actual notes. Because a lot of my stuff has heavy improvisation all the time. It's based more on ideas-a feel that I want to have-than a strict melody.

Julia: So every time you play it it's a little different.
Laura: Mmhmm, but the same. I mean, recognizable as the same.

Julia: That seems a lot like visual art, I mean, art in the sixties that brought together composing and performance art.
Laura: Right, like Yoko Ono. My favorite.

Julia: Did you see her exhibit last winter at the Japan Society?
Laura: Amazing. That anybody should get so much shit for trying to make people think in such a different way…I don't know, I feel very bad for her. I feel like she's gotten such a bad rap. I see her as a very courageous woman. I just think she's cool.

Julia: We love Yoko. Are there other artists who inspire you?
Laura: Nadine Gordimer used to be a big idol of mine. Right around when apartheid was, you know, becoming non-existent, thank God, I was reading a lot of Nadine Gordimer. I met her once at a book signing and I just stammered. She was very reserved. She's amazing.

Julia: It seems like you've had a lot of collaborations with amazing people. How do you hook up with other musicians? Do you find them or do they find you?
Laura: All different. I guess I just started to get to know people. It's a pretty small world, if you're talking about downtown avant-garde people. We all know each other and every once in awhile I get lucky and get to play with a few people. It used to be that I would wait for somebody to call me and now I'll call down and see if they want to do something of mine. But it's all different. A lot of times it's just getting a phone call, it's somebody who sees you at some gig.

Julia: How did your Japanese pop connection start?
Laura: When I was in God Is My Co-Pilot, or when I had just ended God Is My Co-Pilot, I met these guys, Truman's Water, from San Diego, when we were all touring. And later that summer I got a call from them. It was so funny. I was off on this Thelma and Louise ride across the country with my friend, Samara; we had rented a car and were driving everywhere. And I called home and I got this message from Truman's Water that they were looking for me because they had an extra ticket to Japan-they were going there to tour-and they wanted, you know, to bring one other musician to sit in with them and they asked me to play drums for them.

So, that was the first time I went there and it was amazing. It was so cool. I met them-they were in California, I was in New York, so I didn't see them before the plane together, and that's when they gave me the tape of all their songs and they were like, "Oh, you're going to be fine, it's going to be great." And of course they were all really hard! But we just did it and it was great. It was so much fun and just mind-blowing.

Julia: And while you were there, you met the other people-Buffalo Daughter and Takako Minnekawa?
Laura: I guess so. I just remember the second time that Yumiko Ohno-I must have met her at a Truman's Water show-called me and wanted me to do stuff for Buffalo Daughter. Their drummer had just quit. And they were poised on the edge of their Grand Royale contract and their tour. She said, "We want you to come play drums." So the excuse for me to come over to Japan was that I would do the Takako Minnekawa album and that's how I got paid to come over and rehearse. It was really cool. I have to say, I felt like a real rockstar.

Julia: Do you like touring?
Laura: Yeah, when it's nice! I don't like it when it's awful. Like Dim Sum did this tour of the country that was six weeks long and basically we were doing it ourselves even though we thought we had a booking agent, but we turned out not to. And it was just this huge, amazing, nightmare tour where we lost thousands and thousands of dollars. Things like we'd get there and the show would've been canceled. It was just another learning experience.

Julia: How do you name your projects, anyway? You have such great names. Like Dim Sum Clip Job.
Laura: That was a headline in the New York Post about a shoot-out in a Chinese restaurant.

Julia: And Vivian Sisters?
Laura: Vivian Sisters is from Henry Darger who is this Outsider artist. He's one of my favorite artists. He created this whole world. He was a crazy old man who lived in his house for years and years and years; nobody knew he even existed until he died. And his landlord broke down the door and they found all these manuscripts-thousands of pages-and all these paintings. And they were all chronicles of the story of the Vivian Sisters, these little girls who fought these wars against the Glandolinians who were these army soldiers. He had all these incredible tales of the Vivian Sisters. They're all little girls that look exactly alike. They have penises, that's the really weird thing. But they're very amazing children.

He made this whole world. He would go digging through garbage cans and pull out comic books or whatever magazine articles and trace them to incorporate them into his paintings. It's really intense. It's hard for me to explain my exact connection with this but the paintings really hit me. You know, a lot of my work is about childhood in a certain way, about the dark side of childhood. I think the Vivian Sisters, somehow subconsciously, it hit me, I just connected.

Julia: It seems when you talk about Henry Darger as an "outsider" artist that you mean it in a positive way.
Laura: I feel that it's definitely a positive thing, yeah. It just means not part of the establishment. I feel like my music is neither here nor there. I feel very outsider. I just really want to put forth the idea that you don't have to be a studied musician to be a musician; you don't have to be a studied artist to be an artist. You can just do it. I really believe in folk art, just people doing what they do and exercising their creative impulses, their urges that come from somewhere else deep inside them-that it's not like a conscious decision where you have to go to school and learn all of these things.

Julia: And that seems kind of gendered as well, just because women are often denied access to that kind of training or aren't encouraged to express themselves…
Laura: I think that's the connection with riot grrl in a way. I feel that's what that movement was really about, people just saying, "You know what? I can do this. It doesn't matter if I don't know how, I can do it anyway. And I love doing it and it's great and I'm going to shout it to the whole world." I'm all about that.

Julia: What do you think makes you unique as a drummer?
Laura: Nobody's going to call me because I'm a perfect timekeeper or because I sound like a session guy. What sets me apart is that I have a real personality when I play: kind of sloppy, full of energy. I love to play with time, play a little behind the beat or a little on top…or go in and out of time. A lot of the music I play is like that about the relativity of time and the beat. And I listen.

Julia: In terms of genre, what do you listen to these days?
Laura: Mostly, folk music from around the world. Brazilian is my favorite these days. It's like pop music but it's so deep. Pop is an interesting thing because most of it is horrible, I think. It's boring and it's mass-marketed and there's no soul in it. Music like that is boring to me. I know a lot of people are Madonna fans and I almost want to be a Madonna fan because she's a strong woman, and I can see why people are into her. But I gotta say, that music bores me to tears. I don't get it, I just don't get it.

But pop music from almost any other place, [musicians] bring with them certain elements of traditional music. And it's so much more interesting; there's so much else there. Then the pop song-the romance, the broken-heart, whatever the subject matter is-becomes somehow to me a little more poignant because the music is really speaking to me. Whereas if it's just one synthesizer and a drummer with a click track…I can't take that stuff. But I am really interested in pop, I gotta say. That's my dirty secret. I want to write pop music. I really do. I want people to dance.

Julia: Here's the obligatory question: How do you see yourself in the future?
Laura: I see myself writing more and more music, more into keyboards. I just want to keep playing drums. I love playing drums. But, you know, God, I just also want to keep learning. That's the really main thing: I want to keep learning more and more things. There's so much out there to learn. I think it's all process and that's what it's all about: the journey. And if I can not get burned out and just keep that attitude…Like I want to play in the subways. That would be a great way to expand-just getting out there in the real world and just learning from people. I'd really like to bring what I do back to what I feel is a folk medium. I'd like to take away the stage and just be there, playing with people as a means of communication, as a means of expressing whatever it is in our human condition that we all want to express.

On top of being a fairly awesome drummer, Laura Cromwell also makes a mean cappuccino. Julia Cho and Drummergirl thank her for her time, her scrambled eggs, and her hospitality. Thanks also to Rope, the Wonderdog.

Photo: Julia Cho

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